Interview with Carole DeSanti
by Agnes A. Rose
Carole
DeSanti is a longtime
acquisitions editor at The Penguin Group. Notable titles on her list include Bastard Out Of Carolina by Dorothy Allison; The Girl's Guide To Hunting And
Fishing by Melissa Bank; Special Topics In Calamity Physics by Marisha Pessl; the novels of
Terry McMillan and Tracy Chevalier, and Anticancer:
A New Way of Life by
David Servan-Schreiber. She has been profiled in Poets & Writers'
Magazine, and in 2009 received the Publishing Triangle's Leadership Award.
Her essay The Haunted Room, about the working conditions
for women writers, appeared in the Women's
Review of Books. Carole DeSanti’s
own novel The Unruly Passions of Eugénie R. evolved over years of clandestine writing and
research. A response to such classics as Flaubert’s Madame Bovary and Zola’s Nana, the novel explores a woman’s journey from crisis
and self-doubt to awakening and consciousness during the turbulent era of the
Franco-Prussian War.
Agnes
A. Rose: Thank you very much
for your accepting my invitation to take part in this interview. As I mentioned
above you are a writer and an editor at The Penguin Group. First I
would like to ask you about your novel which was published in Poland last year. Of
course I mean “The Unruly Passions of Eugénie R.” You were inspired to write
this book inter alia by Émile Zola’s novel entitled “Nana”. Could you tell us something more about it? Why
was it “Nana”?
Carole
DeSanti: Zola considered himself a realistic novelist – he wanted to prove that his
novels could be just as “scientific” as, well, science – and that this made
them superior to other kinds of novels. He applied a particular method and
studied every element he put in his books, from the shape of a wagon wheel to
the workings of society at large. Like all writers he wanted to render life
truthfully, and felt that objectivity was important. I admire Zola and consider
myself a realist as well, but we had a conflict: Nana, the courtesan at the
center of his story, had no inner life – no ability to consider her actions or
their consequences, and no capacity for love. This is simply presented as fact,
in his novel. But, is it realistic? Scientific? Even if it can be declared a fact about a
woman who becomes what Nana does, how did it come about? What would happen if
you gave an inner life to such a character? What experiences might restore it? If
Nana had been allowed to think, what would she have thought? Later, I read that
Célèste Mogador, a real-life courtesan of the time, who wrote her own memoirs,
and clearly had an inner life and an ability to reflect, was angry at Zola for
his portrayal: as an audience member at a celebrated stage performance of Nana – Mogador loudly hissed. That hiss
was so distinct that it traveled down the pages of history, and found me. I was
well into my project by then, but I thought, aha! I was not the first
woman to respond to Zola in this way.
Agnes
A. Rose: I read that you worked on this novel very long. It was about ten
years. I wonder why it took you so much time.
Carole
DeSanti: The process of writing was somewhat mysterious. As you can imagine, as
an editor I race against the clock a lot, and my tendency was to want to put
myself on deadlines, too. But, Eugénie
herself – and by that, I mean the state of mind in which I truly felt I was in touch
with this remote being – would not be
rushed: it was as if she was saying, “if
you want to know, if you do not want to be superficial and force a solution, it
will take the time it takes.” So, I
began to ask, how deep could I go, how “right” could I get it, how well could I
get to know her? She came and went. She fell silent. Her silences let me know
when I was imposing my will on her story. She did not care for that!
Agnes
A. Rose: On the cover of the Polish edition of your book we can read that
you wrote it in secret. Why didn’t you want your writing plans to come to
light? Were you afraid that you might give up?
Carole
DeSanti: No, it was because of the
distaste in U.S. publishing about
editors who write. Although many editors do write, there is something of a
taboo about it. I did not want to give the impression to my authors and my
bosses that I was not dedicated to my job, because I was, and am. Also, I never really had a good answer, in
publishing terms – that is, business terms – as to why I was doing this crazy
thing.
Agnes
A. Rose: How did you create Eugénie Rigault? Is she completely fictional
character or maybe based on a real historical figure?
Carole
DeSanti: She is fictional, although she
has elements in common with the lives of real women – Sarah Bernhardt, Célèste
Mogador, Marie Duplessis – and many who were less famous. I learned about them from
court documents, diaries, newspapers, testimonials of various kinds. Eugénie
travels in a world of real figures, though – Louise Michel, the revolutionary
teacher; Camille Claudel (who is “Mademoiselle C.”), Haussmann, Napoleon III
and the Empress Eugénie; the courtesan Giulia Barrucci who is her friend…
Agnes
A. Rose: What is the most interesting or maybe surprising fact you came
across in your research for “The Unruly Passions of Eugénie R.”?
Carole
DeSanti: That Célèste Mogador and I share the same birthdate! She was born December
27…1824. I nearly fell off my chair in the library when I found that. I had
fallen into some doubt about what I was trying to do, but at that moment, I
knew for sure that she was on my side, a sort of guiding spirit of the
project.
Agnes
A. Rose: What were the particular satisfactions or frustrations of writing
this novel?
Carole
DeSanti: Satisfaction: writing a scene – then going back to check the facts, and
realizing that I’d gotten it “right” the first time without having specifically
researched something – that’s magical!
Frustration: when the opposite happens, and history – or my character – shook
her head and said, “nice try, but no dice!” Also, I loved visiting special
museums, finding objects like lingerie, or an umbrella – imagining who had touched
these things, owned them – feeling the aura of the past.
Agnes
A. Rose: What about romantic love? Eugénie still meets men who are not
good for her and they make her unhappy. While reading I came to the conclusion
that Eugénie Rigault finally accepted her destiny associated with men in her
life. Couldn’t a nineteenth-century prostitute count on real and happy love?
This is the Polish cover of The Unruly Passions of Eugénie R. Polish publisher: KSIĄŻNICA Katowice 2015 Translated by Maria Grabska-Ryńska & Maciej Grabski |
Carole
DeSanti: Eugénie is engaged in a long, life process that involves learning to
love and be loved without giving up her power – not allowing herself to be
pushed around by the world, or even by her own desires. She gets closer to it
with each relationship – closer with Henri, than Stephan – though with Stephan,
she continues to learn, too. She is doing it within a society that really hated
and denigrated female sexuality, and was obsessed both with fear of and desire
for it, so it was a bit of a challenge! But I think she will find genuine love
in the end. She is well on her way.
Agnes
A. Rose: Is there anything you admire Eugénie for? Maybe did you learn
anything from her?
Carole
DeSanti: Oh, many things. If I was having a hard time with something in my life
– say, finding an apartment in New York City – I would think,
“what would she have gone through, in her time? Women were not even allowed to have
furniture then!” Or when I was brokenhearted at the end of a love affair, I
thought about what it would have meant to be as alone as women once were: shunned
by their society, destitute and unprotected – unable to work in addition to
being heartbroken. What would she do? Eugénie’s
resilience taught me to find my own.
Agnes
A. Rose: Did you plot your book before you started writing or did you work
off an outline? How did you like to work on your novel?
Carole
DeSanti: I had no plan, except to find the truth of the characters. I had to
throw out all attempted outlines, I just dove into the research, or into the
French countryside, or Lourdes – and learned as
much as I could. Then I tried to write truthfully from that place. I used books
from and about the period to carry myself away, to escape into it. And I tossed
my own problems at Eugénie, and had the fun of re-creating people I knew, as 19th
century versions of themselves. What would so-and-so have been like as a
brothel madam? Maybe that ex-lover died on the barricades as a Communard. That
sort of thing. When Stephan stepped up to tell his own story, it was a total
surprise!
Agnes
A. Rose: Was there a point where you said to yourself: “this is enough
research, I need to go and write the book now”?
Carole
DeSanti: Yes, I said that, and I sent it off to an agent who had expressed
interest in it. Then – that very day – I
was browsing in a bookstore and came across a big, fat history of the Paris
Commune! I had skipped over this piece of history, due to laziness and hurry,
and because it was a complicated business to render in fiction. When the manuscript
was declined by publishers in New York on the first
submission, I then had all the time in the world (once I got over my wounded
feelings) to go back to the Commune and the Siege – which turned out to be crucial
to the story. Such was the lesson of deciding I had had enough of research. But,
really, my question was always, “can I learn more?” or “can I be finished?” I
might have over compensated because research is so fascinating, there are
always wonderful surprises.
Agnes
A. Rose: How much being an editor helped you in writing and publishing
your book?
Carole
DeSanti: I would not say being an editor helped me to write, because I was
impatient with myself, and held myself to a very high standard even though I
was a beginner. I was horrified at my early tries, and very
self-conscious. All of that had to be
deconstructed, and it was a tug of war. I felt like a prize-fighter who had
decided, insanely, to learn ballet – I had to lose all of that muscle-mass, and
teach myself grace and precision. In terms of publishing, I did not have much
help there, either. My knowledge of publishing did not help me to escape
rejection, for example!
Agnes
A. Rose: Do you plan to write a sequel of “The Unruly Passions of Eugénie
R.”?
Carole DeSanti: I
would like to. I am very curious about Eugénie’s later relationships – and – to
your earlier question – how does she find her way to real love? What does that
love look and feel like? What would it have felt like in the late 19th
century for a woman to take possession of her full powers? And what of Berthe?
Agnes
A. Rose: Could you tell us something more about your working for The
Penguin Group? What is your experience in working with other authors?
Carole
DeSanti: An editor’s job is to be a “bridge” between the creative side, and the
business of publishing. It is a seesaw, a dance, and a responsibility to be
fair to both sides. My heart will always be with authors and the creative
process – but there is also a point at which the discipline of business is
helpful. For each author and each project there is a balance point and I am
always trying to find it.
Agnes
A. Rose: Thank you very much for this nice conversation. Is there a
question you would like to answer that I haven’t asked? Maybe would you like to
say something to your Polish readers?
Carole
DeSanti: I feel very privileged to have
such readers. I have heard that there is strife in Poland (as in many parts
of the world) about a woman’s body, our right to be independent and to choose our
own destinies. Women are in conflict with traditional values, often religious
values, and trying to find our way. I have been reading about the situation of
legal and illegal prostitution, trafficking, and I feel concerned for these
women. Still today, we struggle with the value of our lives and our bodies. How
to value ourselves? How to feel valued – Is it money, is it love? All of this
is very much a part of The Unruly
Passions of Eugénie R., – so I hope that the novel might allow readers to
step back and see how long these struggles have been going on, and that we are
slowly – very slowly – making progress. In the end, Eugénie had to respect her
own experience, first – before any sort of dogma. She had to learn what
respecting herself and finding her own power of choice actually meant. That it
is possible to survive in extreme situations, and to return from afar to be
true to ourselves. I hope she can do the same for readers in Poland . Thank you so much
for these rich and interesting questions, Agnes.
If you want to read this interview in Polish, please click here.
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